Episode 29 - Forum Assault

Discuss the most recent episodes of Mos Eisley Radio here!
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DarthBelan
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Re: Episode 29 - Forum Assault

Post by DarthBelan » 12 Jan 2011, 03:08

Great show, guys. Just signed up to give my opinion on the forum thing. I'm a lifetime member on Star Trek Online. Now over at their official forums, like other forums, they have a demerit system. Dan Stahl got tired of all the trolling and rage posts, so you get 20 demerits and you get banned. Now what they do different is that those demerits do not expire. Most forums will allow you to get rid of demerits after a certain amount of time. So most of your trolls will push it to that 19th demerit and then behave.

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Alan
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Re: Episode 29 - Forum Assault

Post by Alan » 12 Jan 2011, 11:35

Edwyrmhyde - WOW! That post has to be awarded the Most Epic Post by a First Time Poster Award!

It also appears by some of your comments that you thought you were offering lots of ammo for others to "use" on you. I hope that you find the MER community a place where, while we disagree at times, we mostly agree to disagree with respect and move along with life.

Welcome to the community my new friend! I too am in my 30s, married, father of two, gainfully employed and have tried more MMOs than I want to admit.

Welcome!
- Alan
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Re: Episode 29 - Forum Assault

Post by kenzosan » 12 Jan 2011, 12:29

edwyrmhyde,

i agree with your look on pvp. i have to say the excuse of "we are darkside" is gonna be used alot. on that note, we should make all darkside able to world pvp and lightside are pve. obviously im not serious cuz this would doom a game.

i had been trying to open eyes on the official forums for awhile about advanced classes, not to say i was the only one doing this, only to have my eyes opened to how blind people over there are. as was mentioned in this podcast, everyone there is so dead set in what they think about it, that advanced classes are like talent trees. im open to the fact that if bioware sees it fit to let players change advanced classes then thats their choice and im fine with it. i only want people to be aware of talent trees and not assume advanced classes are the end all be all choice for a group.

i ran into this while playing wow alot, especially since the dual spec got introduced. everyone assumes that because your a warrior you have to have 1 dps and 1 tank spec,but i know alot of people that used the dual spec for pvp/pve reasons. i used it for having 1 dps and 1 tank or healer so i could be helpful to my guild. i know its not alot of people, but as iv heard many times, its a very vocal minority.

one thing, i hope there is no black lightsabers. i mean if from a lore perspective everyone got upset at the jedi wizard, how would a black color saber work. its a one of a kind crystal that is kept in the jedi temple until it was taken by mandalorians. (please correct me if im wrong im basing my knowledge on what i know and what iv heard to be cannon, namely wookieepedia)
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Re: Episode 29 - Forum Assault

Post by Koujow » 12 Jan 2011, 13:28

So, I just wanted to let you know that I joined just to respond. You have recruited me, good sirs. :D

A lot of people forget that those silly non-Jedi folk give Jedi problems in the original trilogy too. Darth Vader hires bounty hunters to find Luke Skywalker. Jabba the Hutt 'rofls' at Luke claiming to be a Jedi. Boba Fett ties up Luke with that grappling hook. I have always thought that Jedi had a major advantage over other people, but I never thought of them as gods among men.

Edit: Bah! Sorry to sound know it all/fanboyish, but the Clone Troopers were replaced by regular dudes during Star Wars Battlefront 2. It is part of the campaign.
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Re: Episode 29 - Forum Assault

Post by Blackferne » 12 Jan 2011, 14:01

Because I am also a 30 something father of one, I have to listen to the podcast in chunks while driving and didn't finish the podcast til after my last post, and I wanted to talk about advanced classes and respeccing. I think you can have both an affordable respec process and make advance classes a permanent choice.

First off I want to remind everybody that each class has a total of 5 talent trees. http://www.swtor.com/info/systems/advanced-classes Each advanced class has access to 3 of them, and only 1 of them is shared by both advanced class. So to use smuggler as an example. Smuggler has 2 advanced classes: Gunslinger and Scoundrel. Gunslinger is known for the dual wielding(up close DPS) and trick shot (I assume powerful crowd control). Scoundrel is known for medicine and the scattergun (ranged DPS). So let's assume (because I can't remember what the advanced skill sets are called that the 5 for smuggler are Gunslinger(Dual Wield, Dirty Tricks) Scoundrel (Medicine, Scattershot) and Shared(Smuggler Core Skills).

So I roll a smuggler and at level 10 I choose. Hopefully they will give you a little playtest of each one, but at some point I make the choice and that choice is permanent and cannot be changed. This still allows me to "spec" different ways. I could be a DPS focused gunslinger or a Crowd Control focused Gunslinger, or maybe I'm a Gunslinger but more of a hybrid between two extremes. Like wise I could be a healing scoundrel or a ranged DPS scoundrel or a mixture. And I could be using companions to compliment my shortcomings so even though I'm a half ranged DPS half healing Scoundrel I always bring my healing companion and serve as the "healer" in a flashpoint.

So Bioware could, and I have no special knowledge one way or the other, say your advanced class is permanent, but how you spec within that advanced class can be changed for a price (and hopefully not an insanely high price). And in a sense they kind of have to allow some spec freedom because besides people will make mistakes, but they also make choices based on current game conditions and game systems will change as they play the universal mmo dev game of "continual balancing". If I take a talent point in something and that talent is decided to be overpowered and they nerf it, I'm being "punished" for Bioware's mistake not mine. Likewise if I decline to take a talent because it is garbage now, and Bioware buffs it later, why should I be punished for not being a true believer in the future upside of a current crappy talent?

So I think the source of this problem in community perception has a lot to do with how we envision the game's classes. We see Smuggler as the class and not so much Gunslinger or Scoundrel. But in reality the advanced class is what we will spend the majority of our time playing. Levels 1-10 (assuming you pick Adv Class at 10) is the introduction to game mechanics, and you are learning the broad strokes of what a group of advanced classes can do, only to make your real decision after you play a bit.

To illustrate this whole thing imagine in WoW that warlock and mage were combined to be the wizard class with warlock and mage being the advanced classes. At level 10 you choose mage school or warlock school, and then you get your three talent trees. One of those trees overlaps (fire damage), while two schools are unique to mage and warlock (mage gets frost and arcane, warlock gets DoTs and Pets). Now you can still respec in your school, you just can't switch from mage to warlock. Now we don't worry about this in WoW (if you want a mage, roll a new toon) because that permanent decision is made a character creation instead of level 10. SWTOR seems to be saying "We want you to get used to the broad category of a group of advanced classes, and then make your permanent choice).

Hope that is some food for thought.
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Re: Episode 29 - Forum Assault

Post by Acaulescent » 12 Jan 2011, 14:24

Great podcast as usual guys. Loved this one in particular and you guys keep your filthy thunderclap away from me :).

Just want to make a few comments on some of the discussions, with TIG, we're looking for some great world PvP. One of our intentions is to try and land a 'relationship' with another well established Republic Guild(s), to land on the same server and plan maybe a monthly event to set up some crazy world PvP scenarios. It's something we've been working at for some time. World PvP can offer a lot of annoyances, I'll agree to that, but also can deliver some legendary battles that grow into something that pulls in people from all over the server to become engaged in. Many times I've found myself being pulled from questing to go to Tarren Mill to spend three hours on some great pvp battles going back and forth from Southshore (spelling on the towns?). TIG in SWG (from what I've been told) use to hold or start world PvP events as well and we're looking forward to recreating similar battles in TOR if the game permits.

Now about leveling up as a tank v.s. dps and all that jazz, don't forget gents, we have companions that can do the dps as well ;). I know we all want to assume that tanks can't do damage and is the long grind like other mmo's but this isn't like other mmo's and I'm hopeful that BW won't let us down in that aspect. We'll have to wait and see but I'm thinking the companion might help a tremendous amount with dps if you're a healer/tank.

Also, 99% of our members avoid the official forums as well. 99% of our discussion is held on within our own forums (as you guys have seen). We avoid the official forums like we avoid thunderclap :lol:. It really is hard to stomach the official forums and it's too frustrating reading what goes on in there. Too many attention whores imo. We survive just fine without them. But of course, like the rest of the entire TOR community, we're there every Friday for the new goodness that comes out of them ;).


Really dug this podcast, can't wait for the next one. Keep up the good work fellas.
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Re: Episode 29 - Forum Assault

Post by Alan » 12 Jan 2011, 15:21

Welcome to the MER community Koujow!
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Re: Episode 29 - Forum Assault

Post by Alan » 12 Jan 2011, 15:24

Blackferne wrote:To illustrate this whole thing imagine in WoW that warlock and mage were combined to be the wizard class with warlock and mage being the advanced classes. At level 10 you choose mage school or warlock school, and then you get your three talent trees. One of those trees overlaps (fire damage), while two schools are unique to mage and warlock (mage gets frost and arcane, warlock gets DoTs and Pets). Now you can still respec in your school, you just can't switch from mage to warlock. Now we don't worry about this in WoW (if you want a mage, roll a new toon) because that permanent decision is made a character creation instead of level 10. SWTOR seems to be saying "We want you to get used to the broad category of a group of advanced classes, and then make your permanent choice).


For a WoW veteran like me, this makes a TON of sense. Well thought out. Thanks for the post!
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Re: Episode 29 - Forum Assault

Post by Snodge » 12 Jan 2011, 16:25

Hi Guys (and gals!) - I've lurked around for a bit, and been listening to the podcasts for ages, but because I do it all from itunes, I completely forgot about the site and the forums until this evening when I saw a tweet which reminded me...

Anyway, I thought I'd just chime in with a few thoughts. Firstly, while I can see where thingy was coming from when he said in the podcast something along the lines of why play an MMO if you don't play on pvp servers... well, currently, in pretty much most MMOs you can pvp solo, just as you can pve solo. Personally, I play MMOs so I can play with other people; some of the people I play with are from other countries, some I work with. Being able to play together is more important than playing on a specific server type. With regards to server type, I think people in general seem to expect it to work and feel similar to WoW - I hate PvP in WoW; it's far too competitive, I'm rubbish at it, and spending all my time doing die->res->run ages back to the fight-> die again - is frustrating to say the least, and if I don't enjoy it, I won't carry on doing it. Whereas PvP in DAoC and WAR felt different, and was enjoyable (at least for the 3 months I played WAR, and the 3 years I played DAoC). I think that it is definitely worth considering that there is PvP and there is PvP.

I also feel slightly frustrated that in general, it seems most people seem intent on reaching the maximum level as quickly as possible, especially in WoW. It seems odd to me that people do this, and then have "end game" to contend with. The levelling process they rush through is merely deferred and transferred into other mechanics for end game - the grind for rep (levelling rep instead of levels), the gear grind (in WoW, the mind numbing repetitions of dungeons and to a lesser extent the raids, just to get better gear - levelling your gear instead of levels), levelling professions, and so on. I just find it difficult to understand why everything has to focus on end game and seems to be less about the journey.
To some extent this also applies to travel, and the fact that people need to rush to be places and to get there in the fastest way possible. It's insane the number of flight paths that have recently been added to WoW, for example. I think that travel and mounts are important, and that they can help differentiate your characters just that bit more from other players characters, however as with everything in an MMO, the reward needs to be balanced with the effort.

Anyway, bring back the days of XP loss, that's what I say... ;)
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Re: Episode 29 - Forum Assault

Post by kenzosan » 12 Jan 2011, 17:06

Alan wrote:
Blackferne wrote:To illustrate this whole thing imagine in WoW that warlock and mage were combined to be the wizard class with warlock and mage being the advanced classes. At level 10 you choose mage school or warlock school, and then you get your three talent trees. One of those trees overlaps (fire damage), while two schools are unique to mage and warlock (mage gets frost and arcane, warlock gets DoTs and Pets). Now you can still respec in your school, you just can't switch from mage to warlock. Now we don't worry about this in WoW (if you want a mage, roll a new toon) because that permanent decision is made a character creation instead of level 10. SWTOR seems to be saying "We want you to get used to the broad category of a group of advanced classes, and then make your permanent choice).


For a WoW veteran like me, this makes a TON of sense. Well thought out. Thanks for the post!
- Alan

i know right!? seriously didnt ever think how to actually show it in terms of wow. iv always thought exactly what blackferne said, i just couldnt put it into words like him. good job man :)
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