It's that time again for a community discussion topic! The week before each episode we put up a short audio clip detailing the new topic. We then want you to send us your thoughts either through the forums, email, or in the form of an mp3. When it comes time to record the episode, we will pull some of your comments and use them as a basis for discussion on the show. So, now for this week’s question…

There has been a lot of recent news regarding Bioware’s direction for space combat in The Old Republic. With the PC Gamer article and the short trailer shown off at GamesCom, we’ve been given a small insight into the very guided, yet highly cinematic experiences the team has planned. There are many details yet to come, but the biggest one we’re looking forward to is how space is going to fit into our personal stories, as well as the larger world arcs. Will space be a completely set apart side experience that bears no meaning on how characters develop or will the missions provide important context for the quest lines we will find ourselves following? Of course, the development team has yet to show us, but we’re incredibly curious to hear YOUR expectations for how space will fit into your experience.

I think it will play a major role in my story, but I don't see it being required for everyone's story. I could see quests kind of going the route of how the flash points play out. Like I'm doing a quest line and it would be 25 quests long. If its that long to be honest it better be epic, but back to my thought at some point it could split into two different paths and say the npc that is giving you the quest give you an option like you fly into space and take care of business there while i take care of business here when we're both done we rendezvous back to here or vise versa where I stay on the planet and he takes care of the space part. And while in either part the story plays off each other but ultimately bridges back together near the end so every player ultimately gets the same feel of accomplishment.

I just can't see this game having a required space line because I imagine the graphics to handle some space exploration and when a battle takes on its going to be pretty hard for a computer not up to par. Bioware I'm sure has thought of this and doesn't want to frustrate a paying customer because at launch they need that person. Giving the option allows players to decide their path but the bridge back will what make it work because it sucks when you hit a brick wall in a quest or mission because you comp crashes every time you get to one point. I'm pretty certain I broke a mouse once when a game froze on me right as i was about to finish every time.

I want space and I think it will make the game flourish more and make it more enjoyable but if its either going to be an option like I suggested or not at all and maybe more of a pvp aspect of the game so this game can work.

-Steiny

I think that the space combat scenes will not just be some random side thing that we can go to only if we want to. i feel they will be placed in the game when we go to travel between planets, only after we have finished he prerequisite quest line. they will be placed in our way mostly as a plot device, similar to flash points.

i disagree with steiny and think that space combat will be apart of everyone's story.

unrelated to this topic: i just got caught up on the podcast. thanks guys for all the work you are putting into this. i am loving the show.

I don't think this necessarily needs to be an either/or situation. I see three main possibilities; it could be any one, two or maybe even all three:

1. Space Combat is part of my overall story arc
2. Space Combat is a fun, side quest/instanced diversion for when I am feeling like a change of pace.
3. Space Combat is part of a "random" encounter as I make my way toward the planet that contains my next objective.

Delving a bit deeper.

First, as part of the overall story arc; If you watch the opening part of the "Space Combat Video", some ugly dude (I am, unfortunately a lore n00b, so forgive me not knowing the names) says that he will need to deploy the Sith at will, and therefore, she will need a Space Craft, and that she earned it. Seems pretty likely to me that you will have done some things as part of your over all story arc that will lead you to obtaining your ship, and personally, I think one of the first things that will happen is that you will be sent somewhere that will require you to complete a "Space Combat" mission to ensure that you can be trusted with your new ship. I also think it makes sense from many other perspectives, and it fits very much in line with Bioware's objective for a cinematic experience. Personally, having my character being part of a sequence like the Battle of Endor would be amazing! Lando Calrisian flying the Millennium Falcon, all win!

Second, why not allow people that enjoy a "rail based" space shooter to have an option to play one at will. I am thinking along the lines of "Skirmishes, aka Lord of the Rings Onlinie". Perhaps there will even be upgrades and achievements available that will incent people to do these skirmished to gain "experience" for their ship. Maybe the ship will even have levels of its own; in preparation for ship based pvp of some sort?

Third, Dragon Age Origins is another Bioware game that uses "random encounters" while traveling from place to place. I am not necessarily a huge fan of these, and would love an option to bypass them should they exist, however, it seems "possible" that Bioware could do something like this in SWTOR. Of the three, I think this one is the least likely (I hope it is, anyway).

Overall, there are tremendous opportunities related to this topic. In the end, I think the Story Arc requirements are the most likely version of what will happen, but I say this with a caveat; I know that an early dev comment said that space combat was optional; so I am not sure how this theory fits with that comment. Regardless, we are talking about theories, so that's what I am putting forward!

Sorry for the wall of text!!

I think space missions and combat is a needed spice for the main dish. I am not a pilot nut with gaming but I have and can have fun with it. I have heard Jumpgate discussed with fond mermories on MER. Bruce Campbell doing the voice of the main character was priceless. Anyway, I just wanted to throw in my two cents with this discussion. I briefly played Star Trek Online mostly out of curiosity and a bit of boredom with Warhammer. STO's space piloting/combat had 3rd person piloting and integrated space missions and story arcs into the travel and combat, but once you achieved your "space mission" they often wanted you to go down to the planet and do a ground mission. I actually really liked the "feel" of that. It is fresh, at least for me, and I really liked it. If TOR touches on aspects of that I think it could be a lot of fun.

I believe that Space will fit into our story arcs, but not in the way most people are thinking. What I want, and what I really hope they'll implement, is Space Combat being a bridge between quests/flashpoints/large group encounters etc.

For example: You've been tasked with eliminating a group of Pirates who are damaging incoming Spice trafficking vessels into Nar Shaddaa. Due to the fact that the group of Pirates are in space, you would then be shown flying into the atmosphere, and you would have a space encounter, ending with your landing on the Pirate Vessel. You would then go, la de da da, rampage about and bam. Quest ends. Fairly poor example but the point is made.

My original hopes were that this would happen for group flashpoints, however BioWare has stated that at launch this will be a singleplayer experience

I think there will be some dedicated Space story-lines, but I doubt they'll be completely random and arbitrary. Random encounters suck.

Given Bioware's reputation, I couldn't seem them doing anything this big in the game without some story significance. In a genre where the stories are normally crafted by the players, Bioware has promised to give us a new way of playing the MMO; simply leaving the space combat (a big part of the "Star Wars" universe) to a set of redundant fetch, protect and/or kill missions wouldn't be just, and certainly wouldn't be Bioware.

From the video released, it looks like it will be a very unique and cinematic experience, and I hope they tie story elements into it as deeply as they plan to with the ground combat.

But who cares, as long as we get to list lazily to the left.

Ahh, Space combat...

Part of me is in love, yet part of me cannot help but fear.

My fear is born of a gut feeling - a gut feeling which is warning me that, though these events may seem 'epic' and 'cinematic' on video - They will in fact be mundane and droll when playing them.

It seems to me as though the on rails space shooter Bioware has presented, could fall prey to a visual disconnect between what is happening on screen and the player's control input. In shooters you pull the trigger on your controller when you fire a weapon because that action reinforces the visualisation on screen. In this flying game it almost feels like the ship is a glorified mouse cursor due to the input method.

I wish that it had been more focused on the ships themselves rather than disconnecting the player from their character and placing the camera outside the ship.

Think about it - in the films the action always takes place in the ship as well as outside it. in the films, the companion flies while the main protagonist defends the ship or vica versa.

In Episode 4 Chewie flies the Falcon while Han and Luke blast tie fighters.

In Episode 5 Han flies the falcon while Chewie and C3PO tend to the hyper drive.

In Episode 6 Han sweet talks the Imperial Officer while Chewie operates the lambda-class shuttles's controls, Ackbar shouts orders to his bridge team while he directs rebel fleet.

It's all in the ship.

Part of me really expected space combat to take place from within a cockpit or a turret. It doesn't make sense from a cinematic standpoint to place the camera behind the ship. It relinquishes the urgency and epic nature of the battle unfolding around you. If you were in the cockpit dodging through debris and enemy fighters as Republic and Sith capitol ships exchanged volleys of fire around you - you would feel completely involved and awestruck by the action. But by taking the camera out of the ship, it loses its epic nature. Imagine Luke's trench run had it been shot completely from behind his ship - it would have been devoid of any sense of awe or scale. That is what Bioware risks by pulling the camera out of the ship, a disconnect of input from player to action and a disconnect of story from the character driven narrative on planets to suddenly; 'galaga-esqe shooter time' when in space.

All games need a unity of experience. If you build a 3D, character based, single player RPG you don't completely throw that away when you move to a different section of the game - doing so only destroys the immersion of the game world and fosters a disconnect between player and story - because the game has betrayed its own rules and betrayed the trust of the player in the reality presented. I want to get in my ship and never be pulled out of it until I disembark. One of the great failings of StarTrek Online was that you never got to be Picard in control of the Bridge - you were just a ship.

I should be able to partake in a space battle without ever really losing my avatar - he should sit down at the turret or flight controls and take over, the camera always remaining focused on my character, my story, and my role in the battle unfolding around me, not some generalistic overview of the battle presented by a camera randomly hovering behind the ship that I'm flying.


I fear that being forced through an instanced tunnel shooter may transform The Old Republic into a more sharded game than it already is:

The epic scale of the Starwars universe already forces each planet onto its own 'instance' like area. I worry that a system of transportation which has such a disconnect from the ordinary flow of the game could really 'shard' the experience - I hate to draw the obvious parallel - but it exists: In World of Warcraft a lot of the appeal of the general questing experience is born from the expansive 'living' nature of the questing landscape. Sure sometimes it sucks that a million people want that same drop as you - but the fact that I can walk from the north of a continent to the south without hitting a loading screen is so impressive - and lends so much realism to the fake digital facade of the game - that you don't care. No doubt there are downsides to piling every player into one continent which does not 'instance' and shard the player base - but the advantages to the realism of the world far outstrip these minor grievances.

The last thing I want is for The Old Republic to ship with an APB-esque instanced model. A model where the community is split based upon how many people can be held in a given area-instance at any one time. That is what killed APB - sharding transformed it from a viable MMO to an underwhelming multiplayer shooter.

I don't think we've really heard anything on how the Universe is united from the developers. How do I get to Coruscant from Tython?

It will be in my ship, for sure - but how do I get there? Do I have to fly through asteroid fields? Will I be randomly assaulted by enemy ships?

If so; awesome - just do it right. I want to trust you, Bioware, but you gave me the Mako and Planetary scanning in Mass Effect. Please do it right.

Having said all this, there is no doubt that the trailer released was all kinds of bad-ass. I just worry how that visual aesthetic will transfer to rewarding, engrossing, replayable gameplay as there is no doubt that a disconnect will exist between player and action due to pulling the camera out of the ship and the instanced nature of space gameplay.

Anyway, I can't wait to group up with all you Mos Eisley Radio fans in game eventually - this game should be sick

The biggest limitation on how much space gets used in general for story arcs will be how hard it is compared to the ground game. There are easily constructed space stories for each class.

Smuggler: Break the blockade via speed or guns (ship customization could play into that)
Trooper: Defend a capital ship against a sith attack.
Jedi Knight: Escort a diplomatic mission to let's say Alderaan.
Jedi Consular: Capture (disable but not destroy) a spy who is running away.
Imperial Agent: Sneak up and deploy charges to destroy a Republic Space Station
Bounty Hunter: Destroy a Smuggler who owes debts
Sith Warrior: Destroy a capital ship
Sith Inquisitor: Capture for interrogation a Jedi Shadow on the run

Those are ones I just rolled off the top of my head. I'm sure if I was at Bioware sitting in a cubicle dreaming these up all day I could come up with more, especially if I knew more about the story arcs they had planned.

The main issue is not the ability to create stories for space combat. It is going to be whether Space combat would act as a gating mechanism in a significant way to other content you may want to weave it into. For example let's say there is a flash point where you and your team need to fight your way to a ship and force a dock and invade scenario. Well the ground raid can't start til everyone is there, what if your main tank who is awesome at tanking can't do space combat worth crap. Well unless they create some way to bypass the space combat(hitch a ride), or at least make it trivial (like Flame Leviathan in Ulduar) you are presenting a barrier towards other content you want players to run.

If it exists purely as single player story arcs that is one thing, but if it is a lead in to any kind of group play down the road, that could be problematic, and something Bioware may be leery to go to deep into at this stage.